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This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made. Frozocrone wrote: In fact the multiple modifiers rules explicitly deals with this exact situation.
DeathReaper wrote: Necroes wrote: From my reading of the rules, that's wrong, and here's why;. Necroes wrote: but that doesn't change the fact that attacks made with a weapon do not use the strength of the wielder, but instead use their own, separate strength value,. Necroes wrote: Frozocrone wrote: In fact the multiple modifiers rules explicitly deals with this exact situation. Talizvar wrote: Try, "If the weapon confers a strength bonus Just to put this into another context, the older versions of the BRB specifically called out power fists as part of the modifiers rules and stated they were multiplication first, then addition.
Even if it doesnt state it as directly now, its pretty clear that they had no good reason to change that this edition. Do we actually have someone arguing here that GW have hidden a super secret rule in the book, given two examples that were deliberately badly worded enough to be ambiguous so that they could force through a change to a mechanic which IIRC has has been identical since 3rd all to the first person to spot it?
I know their rule writing has taken a dip lately but isn't that pushing it? Dakka 5. Member List. Recent Topics. Top Rated Topics. Forum Tools Forum Tools Search. Subject: Advert. Necroes Been Around the Block. Please do not use these when posting in this thread: Spoiler : Argument: The multiple modifiers rule says However, the rule clearly states that this is how modifiers are applied to a Model's stat. In fact, the entire section, under Model's and Units, is discussing model's characteristics.
However, Nothing in that talks about a Weapon's characteristics. For that, we are directed to the Weapons section of the book, under Strength.
Throughout the entire section, the strength of a weapon and the strength of its wielder are clearly defined as separate things. They are Not the same number, which is why a model is not allowed to make a strength check using his weapon's strength.
It's not the Model's characteristic, it's the Weapon's. Using a weapon in melee just gives the model permission to use the weapon's strength and AP in place of its own.
However, Furious Charge does not modify a Weapon's strength. It modifies the model's strength characteristic. So, in my example, we have a blood angel charging with a power fist. So, for the remainder of that turn, that model is str. Thus, when determining the strength of the weapon he is using, a completely separate number which is in no way modified by Furious Charge, we find that it is equal to its user's strength x2, or in this case, strength So, attacks he makes using the power fist are strength The attacks are made at strength 10 because 5 times 2 is 10, and the weapon's strength is equal to the model's strength note, the words 'base' or 'unmodified' are never used when describing a weapon's strength times 2.
The models strength, on the turn he charges, is 5, because Furious Charge increases the Model's strength score not the weapon's by one, and the multiple modifier rule only applies to modifications of a Model's characteristics, not of a Weapon's strength, which is an entirely different number, the rules for which are given in a separate section of the book.
All of that said: This is an interpretation based off of RAW. I openly and readily admit that the RAI , in this case, is more than open to interpretation, as the game never actually presents any wargear that outright modifies the strength characteristic of the model, despite the rules alluding to such things existing. This is not an argument that the rules should or were intended work this way, only that, as written, this is how they work. Colehkxix Regular Dakkanaut. DJGietzen Longtime Dakkanaut.
Regardless, we always use the attacker's stength to wound. If your logic tracked then a weapon's strength would never matter. It does. However, those rules apply to a model's characteristics, not to a weapons strength. As I said in my OP , these rules don't apply to a weapon's strength because weapon's 1. You'll notice that it says his Attack's strength is six, not His strength.
Which tracks, as the model is allowed to use the Weapon's strength, which again, is a separate number from his own when determining the strength of his attacks. Except we don't Not to offend, but I fail to see which part of that is unclear. Surely weapons come under weargear? Weapons are wargear, yes. The rules for multiple modifiers, which is what I'm assuming you're referencing, apply to modifiers affixed by wargear, yes.
However; weapons do Not modify the characteristics of their wielder. Wielding a weapon does not change a model's strength characteristic. A space marine wielding a power fist is not a strength 8 model, it is a strength 4 model, with a strength score of 4. So, the rules for multiple modifiers do Not apply, because they Only refer to modifications of the characteristic, which is Not being modified. Once again; a weapon's strength is a separate number, completely, from its wielder's.
The only thing the wielder's strength has to do with that of his weapon, is that some weapons use the wielder's strength as the basis for determining their own. However, as the weapons rules never say you have to use the model's base strength for this, then you have to use his current strength characteristic After all rules that Do modify the actual characteristic when determining the weapon's strength which, again, is separate from the model's own.
Except, as I said, the weapon's strength Does exist. Page 40, first sentence under Strength, If the weapon's strength Weapon's have a strength score, independent from that of the user. All weapons, both melee and ranged. These rules apply to all types. When the weapon modifies the user's strength characteristic we need to determine what that characteristic would be after any modifiers are applied before we can determine the strength of the weapon.
A power fist does this. If there is more then one modifier to the user's STR we need to apply them in proper order. If weapons do not modify the characteristic of the wielder like it says on page 8, what do they do? With regards to page It notes that you only get the strength bonus when attacking with that weapon. However this is still a modifier. There are no other references to how modifiers should be worked out in the book, nor anything that seperates weapon modifiers from any other modifiers, from what I can see.
Except you don't modify the model's strength. At no point is the strength of the model being changed. At no point during the game if asked 'what is the strength characteristic of that model' we answer with the weapon's strength score.
And you quoted it perfectly, 'after any such modifiers,' Because a rule that clearly Does change the answer to the afford mentioned question, because a blood angel's strength score on the charge is 5, until the end of that round, and will be that for tests, etc.
So, once again, we don't need to apply Anything in a 'proper order' because there isn't one. The weapon tells you what to do. Take the model's strength characteristic, use it as a base, change the base, then you have the weapon's strength score.
Weapons do not modify a model's characteristic. They check it, to determine their own. If they Did modify it, then it would not be a separate number from the actual characteristic. This effect can reduce the recharge time by up to 10 seconds. Generate 10 additional Fury for each enemy hit while charging.
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